Reblogging this again because Chris just made me realize that sheep are so stupid that I can’t even think like them:
These sheep? They are actually running away from the car.
They are so stupid that they’re following each other in a circle around the thing they are running from.
SHEEPNADO
when your group cohesion is set higher than your flee response distance.
Moshpit
This is actually called a sheep cyclone and it happens because sheep don’t have a hierarchy. In most herds, whichever animal is the leader will sense danger and take off running. The rest of the herd takes it’s cues from the leader and follows. Sheep, on the other hand, don’t have a leader. If the flock runs, they run, and they follow whatever fluffy tail happens to be in front of them. Usually, this works out fine for the sheep. Occasionally, however, the sheep in the front starts following the fluffy tail of the sheep in the back so the whole flock ends up running in circles, going nowhere fast.
This is, to my understanding, excactly WHY we have both herding and livestock guardian dogs. Sheep are… really amazingly dumb most of the time.
Then, once in a while, you get one sheep that’s Entirely Too Cunning and that’s when all hell breaks loose.
…that sounds like a horror story
I have been informed by those who study domestic animal behaviour that it’s not so much that they’re stupid with the occasional intelligent one, as that their priorities are so different from our priorities – in part because we did things like deliberately breed dominant traits out of them over thousands of years – that you have to change how you think about how they work at all.
The one, major, overwhelming priority of sheep: Stay With The Herd. This is why you get sheepnados: every single sheep is doing his or her devoted best to stay with the herd. So the sheep runs out of the way … .to the rest of the herd. At which point the other sheep follow it and … .you get sheepnado.
The sheepnado continues in part because there’s nothing to stop it: the car doesn’t actually present a clear and present threat (none of the sheep have been hurt), and there’s no farmer or dog to take that lead position and give them direction. It’s ore or less succeeding at what it needs to, which is that no sheep are being run down by the car, but, THE HERD IS STAYING TOGETHER.
If you want to see how smart a sheep gets, take it away from the herd.
(And if you think about this, it makes perfect sense: “stay with the herd” has HUGE SELECTION PRESSURE on it for domestic sheep. Domestic sheep who stray, die without reproducing. Domestic sheep that get stroppy with the farmer or interfere with the leadership of farmer and his dogs … die, usually without reproducing. Domestic sheep that Stay With The Herd? Usually live and reproduce. The herd becomes ALL IMPORTANT. It’s not that they don’t know they’re running in circles, it’s that running in circles achieves The Goal.
It’s not that sheep have no survival instincts: it’s that we as a species have actually redirected their survival instincts in one overwhelming direction, and evolution is a messy kludge.)
And then if you want to give yourself a head-trip, combine this with those Humans Are Weird SF posts and start wondering what kind of behaviours WE have that could look, to an alien with a very different priority set, as stupid as sheepnado.
I mean really, AS A SPECIES: full-contact team sports.
We expend lifetimes of effort and time and energy to risk catastrophic life-and-quality-of-life-threatening injury (concussion, broken neck, broken collar bone, broken face … ), in order to chase a ball around the field. Never mind the sheer level of engineering, money and resources necessary to make a hockey rink.
And the spectators are even worse. People spend huge amounts of resources going to strange places in order to sit in the stands and watch people do the above.
I don’t really think we have that much ground to mock sheepnado.
Actual sheep expert here! (Like, my doctoral thesis contains three years of sheep behavioural experiments)
I think the mistake everyone is making here is assuming these sheep are scared. Note the guy by the wall. If they were scared of humans or cars that’d be sufficient to not only break the tornado but also have them running for the hills. The problem is basically they are not scared enough.
Let me explain!
So you know your personal space bubble, right? You are likely to feel very threatened when that stranger at the party moves in too close and take a step back to keep him at bay. Also, no one likes sitting right next to someone at a cinema or on the train unless the other seats are taken, right? So sheep have that, but it applies to non-sheep that are pinged as possible predators. Cows have it too. Makes sense, right? Anyone who gets in too close who you don’t know is likely to be a predator, regardless of your species.
This personal space bubble might be, oh, say, ½ a kilometre in size if they live in the middle of the outback with 2000 of their buddies and see a human once a season for medication, but are otherwise left to their own devices. Most of the time though it’s far smaller, and there isn’t really one for members of their flock, although if there’s no threats around they’ll spread out to graze across an entire paddock, staying close to their bffs.
(Tangent: the CSIRO found out in the 70s or 80s, by use of some guy, binoculars and countless manhours, that yes, sheep tend to hang out with the same sheep again and again when people aren’t running around scaring them. They may look alike to you or I but they recognise each others faces, just like we do!)
ANYWAY. Say you’re a person coming in to herd them. They’ll ignore you until you get close to the boundaries of that personal space bubble then the ones nearest to you will start looking at you nervously in a, “Gosh, that guy better not be moving towards me. Sandra, do you think he’s coming towards us?” kind of way, and will be trying to decide whether to go or stay – just like one might when the creeper comes into the party and starts walking towards you.
Now, the leader sheep, that they all follow? She’s not the smartest or most independent one, she’s the one with the smallest personal space bubble and the distance you’ve walked to get the others nervous is close enough to get her unhappy. She’ll run in the direction opposite to you. In which case her supportive buddies flocking instincts kick in and they go, “Oh shit, Sandra thinks it’s a threat. Cluster up, girls!” and all zoom off together, away from the threat. Sandra has no idea where she’s going, she’s scared, but if another predator turns out to be in the direction they’re running the flock will split and run on either side of them to merge again, rather crowd at the train station around a pylon kind of way.
(Tangent: In low stress stock handling, the welfare gold star modern method of livestock handling, we take advantage of this by teaching sheep their boundaries will be respected. We move to the edges of their their flight zone – that is, personal space bubble – and let them move away, letting them learn that we will not push too much or hurt them. If they gently keep pace we’ll steer them towards the yard with food while respecting their wishes to not be near us. They don’t get scared, and no one – us or them – accidentally gets hurt by a panicked stamped)
Returning to the above photo! The problems start if they are so used to you the flight zone is tiny. You’re an adopted member of the flock, they actually are cool with you being at arms distance. You can’t cuddle them, you’re not an actual sheep, but you have to really get close, go, “OI! MOVE IT LADIES!” and wave your arms around to get them moving, because they know you’re not a threat. Same applies to cars actually. And they can tell motors apart by sound. The ute is kinda boring, but the tractor or gator? Holy shit, food delivery time!
And that is how we’ve ended up with sheepnados around the gator, which we were using because it was a four wheel drive and the ute would get bogged, but I had experiments to do. And they decided this meant food and bailed me up until I fed them. I didn’t even have more than a bucket on me. I had to run ahead, sprinkling it like bird seed to get them to move, so we wouldn’t accidentally kill them. Annnnnnd I’ll bet you anything that the sheep in the picture were used to being fed by exactly the same kind of ute, if not by the same one, and the poor driver is trying to inch forward to get to town but the sheep are just FRIEND? FOOD FRIEND? HI FRIEND. FOOD NOW? NOW?
Supporting visual evidence? Look at how there’s no running away from the car, when ute herding, complete with horn beeping is actually a very common way to herd flocks. Look at how the ute is miserably inching forward, giving them a clear direction to run, but they are so not scared that at the moment flocking instinct has kicked in but not enough panic to actually direct it. I Imagine the driver is honking like crazy, to no avail. Look at the random terrifying predator human by the wall, who is sensibly turning his back to the sheep, because if the predator has his back turned you can run behind him! But no sheep is utilising the supplied alternate route. Yeah, these guys aren’t scared, this is an armed robbery of an empty pizza delivery truck.
ALSO! Posters higher up in the thread, please stop saying sheep are stupid? They’re not! Just panicky and scared of us! I’ve taught sheep to solve mazes and remember the route days later. You can teach them stuff in a day that takes a month to teach monkeys! If you’ve ever frozen up in an exam or while public speaking, surely you’d know how hard it is to be smart when you’re frightened? The first step to intelligence testing a sheep is to either automate everything – or do what I did and more or less raise them from birth so they bail you up for cuddles when they see you, and follow you as leader sheep. Downside? They will learn to open multiple kinds of gates just to follow you, and any sheep you take with you to put in the maze, half a kilometre down the road because GUYS YOU FORGOT US!!! 😀 😀 😀 (“Sheep, no, stop! I left you there to get shorn! It’s SUMMER, you’re HOT, please stay here for your haircut! You’ve finished the maze, you know the route too well! I can’t give you reward treats when we’ve established that you’ve memorised it, that’s cheating!”) Or, you know, become impossible to herd and mill around you, and your car, because they want to hang out and have no sense of urgency.
THERE YOU GO EVERYONE. SHEEP: EXPLAINED . XDXD
Brilliant addition by da-staplerthief on how we’ve utlised flight distances in livestock selection! Also, concuring that sheep aren’t stupid, their brains are just geared up with very different priorities.
Reblogging this again because Chris just made me realize that sheep are so stupid that I can’t even think like them:
These sheep? They are actually running away from the car.
They are so stupid that they’re following each other in a circle around the thing they are running from.
SHEEPNADO
when your group cohesion is set higher than your flee response distance.
Moshpit
This is actually called a sheep cyclone and it happens because sheep don’t have a hierarchy. In most herds, whichever animal is the leader will sense danger and take off running. The rest of the herd takes it’s cues from the leader and follows. Sheep, on the other hand, don’t have a leader. If the flock runs, they run, and they follow whatever fluffy tail happens to be in front of them. Usually, this works out fine for the sheep. Occasionally, however, the sheep in the front starts following the fluffy tail of the sheep in the back so the whole flock ends up running in circles, going nowhere fast.
This is, to my understanding, excactly WHY we have both herding and livestock guardian dogs. Sheep are… really amazingly dumb most of the time.
Then, once in a while, you get one sheep that’s Entirely Too Cunning and that’s when all hell breaks loose.
…that sounds like a horror story
I have been informed by those who study domestic animal behaviour that it’s not so much that they’re stupid with the occasional intelligent one, as that their priorities are so different from our priorities – in part because we did things like deliberately breed dominant traits out of them over thousands of years – that you have to change how you think about how they work at all.
The one, major, overwhelming priority of sheep: Stay With The Herd. This is why you get sheepnados: every single sheep is doing his or her devoted best to stay with the herd. So the sheep runs out of the way … .to the rest of the herd. At which point the other sheep follow it and … .you get sheepnado.
The sheepnado continues in part because there’s nothing to stop it: the car doesn’t actually present a clear and present threat (none of the sheep have been hurt), and there’s no farmer or dog to take that lead position and give them direction. It’s ore or less succeeding at what it needs to, which is that no sheep are being run down by the car, but, THE HERD IS STAYING TOGETHER.
If you want to see how smart a sheep gets, take it away from the herd.
(And if you think about this, it makes perfect sense: “stay with the herd” has HUGE SELECTION PRESSURE on it for domestic sheep. Domestic sheep who stray, die without reproducing. Domestic sheep that get stroppy with the farmer or interfere with the leadership of farmer and his dogs … die, usually without reproducing. Domestic sheep that Stay With The Herd? Usually live and reproduce. The herd becomes ALL IMPORTANT. It’s not that they don’t know they’re running in circles, it’s that running in circles achieves The Goal.
It’s not that sheep have no survival instincts: it’s that we as a species have actually redirected their survival instincts in one overwhelming direction, and evolution is a messy kludge.)
And then if you want to give yourself a head-trip, combine this with those Humans Are Weird SF posts and start wondering what kind of behaviours WE have that could look, to an alien with a very different priority set, as stupid as sheepnado.
I honestly have no idea. I would assume it’s based on at least tolerance (because a dog the animals fear couldn’t protect them successfully – it has to stay near them) but I don’t have any experience with working herding dogs. @animalsustainability probably knows folk who can answer this for us!
So first of all there is a misconception to clear up. People with livestock have two different kinds of dogs – herding dogs and Livestock Guardian Dogs (LGDs). The LGD is the one that protects the sheep – that’s 100% of it’s job. The herding dog, on the other hand, doesn’t protect the flock – it’s job is to move the flock where the human says so. That is 100% of it’s job. And they rely on two very different skillsets – while crosses do happen by accident (I know a lovely collie/pyrenees cross but he was very much unplanned), they’re bred to do two very different jobs and behave very differently. Pyrenees/Maremmas/Caucasian Shepherds (basically dogs of the big fluffy white variety) are LGDs. Collies, Australian Shepherds, Blue Heelers, etc – all herding breeds.
The LGD pretty much lives with the flock – if the dog is chill, the sheep are chill, and the sheep also sometimes use the LGD as a way of deciding if something is a threat or not. It is socialized to be around the livestock first, and view them as its to protect, against humans or other threats. They are always on duty for their flock and will not be friendly to strangers. They don’t really go off the clock, but I’ve seen them sleeping in the middle of a bunch of sheep on more than one occasion.
Photo: Case in point – here we have a LGD chilling with his sheep. He later got bored watching us silly humans and napped. Such fluff. Much chill. Wow. Photo credit: H.C. Dougherty (me)
Conversely, the herding dogs are often kept away from the sheep until it’s time to herd them. If they aren’t needed, they either chill with their people or with other herding dogs or in a kennel – they only interact with livestock when it’s time to herd something. So no, off the clock chilling doesn’t happen – it’s contrary to goals. However, the sheep aren’t supposed to be happy to see the herding dog either – the dog is supposed to be something annoying or mildly threatening to move away from in a controlled manner.
This is because the herding dog is a positive pressure to get the animals to move away from the dog and towards where the shepherd wants. As I heard a producer say at the most recent sheep festival, “If I don’t want the sheep to go somewhere, I put a dog there”. Because the sheep want to stay away from the dog, you use the dog as a way of getting the sheep to move somewhere else. This relies on using dogs to safely mimic predator behavior in a controlled environment – the sheep recognize the dog as something to avoid.
Image: A diagram explaining the flight zone of an animal and where you should move as a human to get animals to move one way or another. Dogs can apply similar pressure. Photo credit: Temple Grandin
Every animal has a flight zone – a bubble of personal space that if breached by an unfamiliar animal or human, they move away. Herding relies on using a dog to manipulate the flight zones to get the animals to move in a certain way – by making it so they want to move away from the dog or human. Flight zone is a function of familiarity – that’s why sheep are chill with LGDs – they see them daily. Herding dogs need to not be around the sheep as much so that they can be pressure on that flight zone.
A well-trained dog/human pair (or dog/human combo in general) knows how to apply and release positive pressure of the dog and human to get the sheep to go someplace with minimal fuss. The dog applies pressure to get the sheep to move, which is relieved when the sheep move. Repeat as necessary to get the job done. Ever heard a person say “that’ll do” to a dog? That’s the signal for ‘ok, ease off on the pressure’.
You can see herding dogs moving in ways that would be like how you’d see wild canids stare at, stalk, and chase their prey – except in this case, we’ve trained the dogs away from the final ‘and then kill’ part of it, and just to move in such a way that they put pressure on the flight zone to get the sheep to move where we want them to. We’re basically faking a wolf going after them, but in a positive manner – sheep respond to a herding dog like they would to a wolf and that’s what we want. That’s also why the herding dogs aren’t kept with the sheep – so that response stays in place. We’re also playing off the dog’s natural instincts here.
The dogs are also trained for years to do this – starting young. I saw a 2 year old collie at the festival who was still very much a newbie. We use experienced dogs to train the newbies, and a lot of shepherds use multiple dogs as well. But it is a tough job and the dogs are trained well and rewarded well for it. When they’re off the job, they are happy cuddlebugs like any other dog would be. I’ve given many an off-duty collie some tummy rubs.
I won’t deny, the sheep are stressed by the dog’s presence and activities. But moving animals is always going to cause stress – the goal is to minimize the stress but still get the job done, and proper use of flight zones and pressure is the best way to do it. And “dog-broke” livestock, aka ones used to being herded by dogs, will respond with less stress than ones not used to it – there’s even a genetic basis for ease of herding that can and has been selected for, and lambs learn from their mothers. So the sheep can get used to it but it will still be effective as a method to move sheep into pens for vet checks/between paddocks/etc.
Fact of the matter is, herders need their dogs to effectively move their sheep in as low-stress a manner as possible, and it’s a work of art to see trained herding dogs do their job. With a well trained dog, the sheep are more annoyed than stressed, but know it’s part of the deal, and the dog and human work together like a visual symphony. If you have the chance to see sheepdog competitions – I seriously recommend you go. They’re visual art and so magnificent to see, and I love them so.
Fuck this. Does everyone just not see the blood scrapes on some of their backs and faces???!!! Anyone, seriously, correct me if I’m wrong because this is making me upset af
Domesticated sheep need to be sheared because they don’t shed their coats on their own and it can be bad for their health if it gets too big.
Also, it looks considering how close they cut that it went fairly well. I see like 2 nicks maybe, but with the photo it’s hard to tell. I mean, unfortunately, you’re going to nick a few animals because they don’t understand the order of “stand still” very well.
Sheep can die from heat exhaustion if they aren’t sheared.
Also, their skin secretes lanolin, which quickly soothes and heals any nicks they get during shearing.
also i don’t want to alarm anyone, but animals, including sheep, are entirely capable of biting, kicking, rubbing up against sharp or rough objects, and even falling down. It is entirely possible one or two of the sheep got antsy while being shorn, but it’s also entirely possible any scratches or tiny marks of blood are from things that have nothing to do with the act of shearing.
also im not sure if the person upset about blood is seeing something i don’t, but i looked all over that photo, very carefully, and the only things that could look alarming at a glance appear (on closer inspection) to be identification tags, the pinks of their ears, and maybe one or two small marks from either the sheep mucking about or a momentary “close shave” which as mentioned above, could be from the sheep moving while being trimmed
dogs are groomed all the time for aesthetics and for heat/health/etc, and sometimes they get minor cuts too (rarely but it happens), especially when it comes to trimming their nails (again, something that MUST be done). No one seems to mind that too much?
I think those who don’t understand how shearing works should first look into unbiased sources (unlike peta, who is known for fear-mongering, sexism, ableism, and even flat out killing animals that no kill shelters could have taken) and from actual farmers before worrying too much about the care of the sheep. There’s countless videos online and endless information on how wild sheep live vs domesticated, and what needs and care needs to take place. The sheep are safe and happy.
I have alluded to sheep being a rather unfortunate species in terms of survival, and many of you have been patiently waiting for me to elaborate. I intend to start now. So let me try to explain just a fragment of why we veterinarians say “the goal in life of a merino ewe is to die, and take 50 of her closest friends with her).
Sheep (specifically in Australia where we probably have more than 70 million of them) can and do die in any of these ways:
If it rains too much while a sheep has a full fleece. They get soaked, weighed down, can’t move and die.
If it rains too much when a sheep has too little fleece, they get hypothermia and die
If it rains too little, there’s no water to drink and they die.
If there’s not enough grass or food available, they die.
If they eat too much perennial ryegrass, the most common pasture species in Australia, they can develop tremors from the neurogenic toxins it contains, and die.
Annual rye grass, which is the second most common pasture species, also causes staggers if the grass carries a particular bacteria, and if sheep eat too much or it then they die.
Merino sheep in particular are often bad mothers. They commonly (20-30%) will give birth and just wander away without a second thought, leaving the lamb to die.
We also have foxes that like to eat lambs (or at least their tongues), sometimes while they are being born, and they die.
Eagles will also take lambs or young sheep, and then they obviously die.
Sheep pregnant with twins are susceptible to Twin Lamb Disease where the mother physically cannot consume enough energy for herself and the growing fetuses. Without great care they will all die.
Sheep producing milk commonly develop hypocalcaemia and can die
Sheep given intravenous calcium to treat the hypocalcaemia, if it is given too fast, will die.
Sheep producing milk on lush pasture are at risk of hypomagnesaemia (grass staggers) and can, you guessed it, die.
Grazing pasture that is too lush or too high in protein can cause bloat, which can take out an entire flock of sheep and cause them to die.
Grazing too much red clover, a very popular pasture species in Australia, can cause both infertility and bloat. Then they die.
Sheep in Australia are very prone to flystrike, where blowflies lay eggs i the wool or flesh of the sheep so maggots can eat them. This starts while they’re alive, but it will cause them to die.
They also carry huge numbers of worms which compete for nutrients from their food, cause diarrhea and can cause sheep to die.
That diarrhea in their wool makes them extra attractive to files and, again, death.
Johne’s Disease is a chronic wasting disease similar to Crohn’s, which will result in a slow wasting away as individuals are often infected for most of their life, and then they die.
And this list is by no means complete.
Reblogging because it’s relevant to the post earlier today, and to clarify for those people wondering how sheep still exist: Because there’s so very many of them and we spend a lot of energy maintaining their existence.
They are also prone to predation by feral dogs, all sorts of nutrient deficiencies and walking away from shelter in a storm because the wind was blowing in the wrong direction
I’m in my mid-twenties, and honestly get so much hate over being childfree that I’ve started telling people I have an adopted daughter when they ask about my kids. I just conveniently leave out the fact that my adopted daughter is, in fact, a 40-pound sheep, one of roughly two dozen that live in my back yard.
It isn’t even a lie, I raised that lamb on a bottle from the day she was born, as far as she’s concerned I’m her mom. And as long as I’m vague enough, the problems of dealing with sheep sound totally believable as human toddler parenting problems. “Oh yeah, my daughter’s two, she always puts everything in her mouth.” “Ugh, my daughter is always climbing on stuff, I swear she’s part mountain goat!”
I live for seeing how long I can keep it up before someone asks to see a picture of my little darling. “Sure!” I say, “Here she is! Isn’t she adorable?” then relish the horrified confusion when they see this tiny little brown sheep like:
It’s the best thing. It’s my favorite thing I’ve ever done, next to raising sheep in the first place.
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